Rarog пишет:
Маленько неясно, как из ильменита( FeTiO3) добывать кислород и воду.
Восстановлением водородом? Так и его взять где-то надо. Или в нем водород в качестве примесей есть?
нейромантик пишет:
Приволочь с собой хлор. Греть с хлором колбу набитую ильменитом, потом фракционировать хлориды и разлагать их. На выходе масса кислорода (загрязнённого правда хлором) и чистые металлы - отдельно титан, отдельно натрий, отдельно железо, отдельно кремний и т.д.
нейромантик пишет:
Водород на Луне взять пока просто неоткуда. Да и реакции с водородом идут при крайне высоких температурах. Не каждый материал выдержит.
Вадим Семенов пишет:
Водород не расходуется (в первом приближении). Получившаяся в реакции вода разлагается на электролизом и водород идет по кругу.
Вадим Семенов пишет:
А вообще, если есть лунный кислород, то экспедицию с высадкой на Луну можно упихать в один Союз и один Протон (несет кислород-водородный разгонный блок). При этом лендер многоразовый, он заправляется кислородом на Луне, а водородом -- во время стыковки со связкой КК Союз-разгонный блок на лунной орбите. Потребуется перекачать около тонны водорода из РБ в лендер. Взамен разгонный блок должен получить от лендера около тонны кислорода для обратной дороги (орбита Луны -- трасземная траектория).
нейромантик пишет:
Есть-то он есть, да синтез его дело не быстрое. т.е. тонны три надо делать недель 6-8 минимум, и это я исхожу из самых оптимистичных оценок. Потом надо не только сжать, но и сжижжить, и хранить. Итого = геморроя выше крыши.
Димитър пишет:
Есть-то он есть, да синтез его дело не быстрое. т.е. тонны три надо делать недель 6-8 минимум, и это я исхожу из самых оптимистичных оценок.
А что мешает делать быстрее?
Димитър пишет:
Вообще говоря, я очень рад, что обратили наконец внимание на кратера Аристарха. Это не случайное место! Там происходят самое большое количество проявлений пунной активности. Тоесть - самая большая вероятность найти выбросов газа из недр Луны.
нейромантик пишет:
Всё упирается в мощности перерабатывающего оборудования (больше производство - массивнее оборудование), мощности добывающе-сепарирующего (бульдозеры и скреперы, дробилки-молотилки), в производственный цикл (работа будет циклической, а не непрерывной - особенности производства) и в возможности хранения (замораживания например до отвердения, и складирования).
Димитър пишет:
Еще один кандидат:
"Британский физик Бена Хасси и несколько его коллег из американской лаборатории прикладной физики Университета Джона Хопкинса нашли идеальное место для строительства базы на Луне. Согласно результатам исследования, лучше всего подходит для этого кратер Пири. Он находится недалеко от северного полюса Луны.
В этот район постоянно попадают солнечные лучи, средняя температура минус 50 градусов по Цельсию, и ее колебания незначительны.
Кроме того, в районе этого довольно большого кратера крупные участки поверхности постоянно находятся в тени, и не исключено, что там - лед, а это может пригодиться космонавтам для получения воды.
Для того чтобы выбрать идеальное место для будущей базы, специалисты проанализировали 53 снимка северного полюса Луны, пишет журнал Nature."
Димитър пишет:
Насколько я понимаю, все таки основной кандидат остается Южный полюс. Там воды примерно в два раза больше, чем на северном. Конкретнее - говорят про кратер Мерперт.
На одном месте постоянно попадают солнечные лучи, а по соседству - крупные участки поверхности постоянно находятся в тени.
X пишет:
Насколько я понимаю, все таки основной кандидат остается Южный полюс. Там воды примерно в два раза больше, чем на северном. Конкретнее - говорят про кратер Мерперт.
На одном месте постоянно попадают солнечные лучи, а по соседству - крупные участки поверхности постоянно находятся в тени.
C сайта JAXA:
Natural base on the Moon: the Lava Tubes
In the future, the Moon will change from an object to explore to become a base for mankind's activities. The problem is whether mankind can cope permanently with the Moon's harsh environment.
It seems that the Moon has already provided a candidate for a splendid natural base.
It is the caves called lava tubes.
The lava tubes are formed when lava erupted from volcano flows. The lava flow makes a cave. There are many lava tubes in Japan, for example, in Aokigahara at the base of Mt. Fuji. On the Moon, there are areas where craters lie in a row (see Fig. 3). The formation of such areas can be explained thus: a tube is formed beneath the area, but the tube's ceiling is hit by small meteorites and collapses, forming a line of craters. In the lunar lava tubes, equipment and personnel can be protected from meteorites and/or cosmic rays. Temperature changes on the lunar surface that vary up to hundreds of degrees Celsius would not reach the lava tubes. According to the study by Miyamoto (University of Tokyo) and the author, the temperature inside the tube is likely to be kept at about 0 degree C. Moreover, the bottom of the tube is smooth so we can walk without much trouble. In addition, the larger lunar lava tubes are believed to extend hundreds of meters in width and tens of meters in height. Such safe, huge spaces are naturally provided on the Moon. If there are tubes with height up to tens of meters, the Terrain Camera of SELENE may find the entrances.
The chain of dotted craters indicated in Fig. 3 is also seen on Mars (Fig. 4). It is believed that Mars had (or has?) water underground. If water exists in the surface layer, it must flow in the tube. There is possibility that water flows and dries up in the tube repeatedly. This suggests that the tube might be a suitable place for life to emerge due to its environment: water is moderately supplied, temperature is stable, and it is protected from radiation. Since the Moon has no atmosphere, oceans, and forests, it is very suitable place to observe spread and shape of the lava tubes broadly. Investigation of the lava tube on the Moon must be linked and develop to research on lava plateau formation on solid planets produced by the tube formation, exploration of the Mars's tubes, and quest for life in the tubes in the future.
Epilogue
Due to space limitations, this article has to end with the introduction of some specific expectations for lunar exploration. In SELENE, a variety of data will be obtained and various research studies will be made, though I cannot introduce all of them here. The data and studies will become important for the 21st century's planetary science. Also, the data obtained by SELENE will be basic ones for those who will again visit the Moon.
Everybody, shall we return to the Moon!
(Junichi HARUYAMA)
Может поискать эти пещеры?
И когда же японцы запустят эту SELENE?
Лютич пишет:
Лавовые галереи - это хорошо, а то у меня сразу портилось настроение при мысли о доставке на Луну горнопроходческого щита. Правда, есть у них недостаток - сравнительно неглубокое залегание. Т.е. при наполнении их атмосферой могут изрядно травить воздух через трещины в кровле.
X пишет:
Для герметизации трещин/щелей мона нанести методом распрыскивания какой-нибудь полимер на свод пещеры...
Димитър пишет:
Остается только найти этих пещер... 
Про "Селене" - Launch Date: 2007-01-01
а должна была уже лететь ... Печально
Олигарх пишет:
Остается только найти этих пещер... 
Про "Селене" - Launch Date: 2007-01-01
а должна была уже лететь ... Печально
New Scientist SPACE - Breaking News - Experts poles apart over Moon landing sites
07 February 2006
Experts poles apart over Moon landing sites
17:19 06 February 2006
NewScientist.com news service
This map shows the landing sites of the Surveyor (yellow), Apollo (green) and
Luna (red) missions, all largely centred around the lunar equator
A healthy debate over whether humans should go to the Moon’s well-studied
equatorial regions or its more enigmatic but sunny poles is emerging among lunar
researchers, as NASA pushes towards a return to the Moon.
Reminiscent of debates seen during the planning stages of the Mars rovers
mission, its central question asks whether robotic landers and later human
missions should focus on the known equatorial regions or the promising, but
still largely unknown, polar regions of the satellite.
Where would you put YOUR moon base?
Recently, David McKay, chief scientist for astrobiology at
NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston, US, circulated a white paper suggesting
at least one landing site should be located on dark volcanic rock deposits –
called pyroclastic deposits
– mainly found away from the Moon's poles.
The deposits are thought to run deep and contain extremely fine-grained
particles likely to be rich in material that could be used for in situ
manufacturing.
Besides raw materials, McKay says,
the overall advantage is that
"producing oxygen and hydrogen from lunar pyroclastics may be significantly
simpler and cheaper than from any other lunar feedstock."
These components could be key for life support and fuel production.
True split
But many researchers argue that the polar regions should be the top priority. A
number of current and planned international lunar orbiting missions will help
fill the knowledge gaps.
NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, planned for launch
in late 2008, aims to identify resources around the Moon that later missions
might investigate.
The lunar research community is truly split over where to send future landers,
says Butler Hine, deputy program manager for the Robotic Lunar Exploration
Program at Ames Research Center in California, US.
"Half of the science community says the most interesting place to go is the
polar regions and half of the community says it's the equatorial regions," he
says. "But my prediction is that the first lander will go to the polar regions."
he told New Scientist.
Water traps
Others say the debate is not so evenly divided. Lunar and planetary scientist
Charles Wood of Wheeling Jesuit University in West Virginia, US, says "there
seems to be this bandwagon to go to the poles." He describes McKay's white paper
as "a refreshing change of thought".
The argument to explore the northern polar regions is driven by the possibility
that water ice from comets may lay frozen in the shadowed depths of impact
craters there. Some of those potential shadowy water traps are thought to be
near other areas that receive nearly constant sunlight.
The water ice theory is fuelled by data from the Lunar Prospector Orbiter, which
indicates abundance of hydrogen atoms at the poles. But no one definitively
knows whether that hydrogen is in the form of water ice.
Making light work
But even without the increased levels of hydrogen, the increased sunlight
provides a compelling argument for going to the poles, says Ben Bussey, at Johns
Hopkins University's Applied Physics Laboratory, US. He reported in 2005
(Nature, vol 434, p 842) that data from the 1994 Clementine mission showed that
several spots high on the rims of craters near the North Pole were constantly
illuminated throughout an entire lunar day – about 29 Earth days – in the
summer.
"The poles may present the best place to be for an extended period of time," he
says. "It's the light that is potentially enabling."
Scientists believe horizontal solar panels at the poles could collect energy
from the Sun at least 75% of the time while the equatorial regions of the Moon
alternate between 14 Earth-days of sunlight and an equal period of darkness.
Models have estimated that the poles stay within about a 10 degree range of
-50°C.
Meanwhile, temperatures at the equator fluctuate between -180°C and 100°C.
Олигарх пишет:
Насколько я понимаю, все таки основной кандидат остается Южный полюс. Там воды примерно в два раза больше, чем на северном. Конкретнее - говорят про кратер Мерперт.
На одном месте постоянно попадают солнечные лучи, а по соседству - крупные участки поверхности постоянно находятся в тени.
C сайта JAXA:
Natural base on the Moon: the Lava Tubes
In the future, the Moon will change from an object to explore to become a base for mankind's activities. The problem is whether mankind can cope permanently with the Moon's harsh environment.
It seems that the Moon has already provided a candidate for a splendid natural base.
It is the caves called lava tubes.
...
Everybody, shall we return to the Moon!
(Junichi HARUYAMA)
Может поискать эти пещеры?
И когда же японцы запустят эту SELENE?
New Scientist SPACE - Breaking News - Can high-tech cavemen live on the Moon?
Полный текст: http://www.newscientistspace.com/articl … -moon.html
Can high-tech cavemen live on the Moon?
13:01 31 July 2006
NewScientist.com news service
Moon caves would make good homes for astronauts and should therefore be mapped
out, a space scientist argues.
The Moon appears to possess long, cave-like structures called lava tubes that
are similar to ones on Earth. They form when the surface of a stream of lava
solidifies and the molten rock inside drains away, leaving a hollow tube of
rock.
Some of the tubes on Earth are big enough to drive a car through, and those on
the Moon could be even larger.
Apollo 15 astronauts discovered that Hadley Rille
a lunar channel that may be a partially collapsed lava tube was 1 kilometre
wide.
For decades, engineers and space scientists have discussed the possibility of
using these caves as astronaut housing because they are sheltered from space
radiation and micrometeorite impacts. But the idea should now be revisited in
light of NASA's push to send astronauts back to the Moon, says Austin Mardon of
the Antarctic Institute of Canada in Edmonton, Alberta.
Meteorite-proof
At a meeting of the International Lunar Exploration Working Group (ILEWG) in
Beijing, China, last week, he argued that robotic probes should be sent to
potential lava tubes to see if they are suitable for habitation.
!!! He says erecting pressurised tents inside a cave would be easier and faster than
trying to construct a rigid structure on the surface.
"Instead of assembling
structures that have to be meteorite-proof on the surface, or burying them,
you'd have tent-like structures inside these tubes," Mardon told New Scientist.
"It's like being cavemen on the Moon."
"Its a potentially very inviting place to put infrastructure, agrees Mark
Robinson of Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, US. He says sections
of the lava tubes with roofs still intact appear to be very stable, having
survived for 3 billion years or more since their formation.
But he points out that the lava tubes may not be located where NASA would like
to send astronauts. For example, the polar regions which may harbour water ice
that could be used to support a lunar base appear to bear no sign of the
ancient lava flows associated with lava tubes.
Rocks in the road
And the tubes could be full of rubble, he adds. Haym Benaroya of Rutgers
University in Piscataway, New Jersey, US, agrees and says it might take a lot of
work to make the lava tubes usable. "Maybe the opening is not big enough. Maybe
there are boulders in the way, he told New Scientist.
Lava tubes are not ruled out, but the question is: at what stage of lunar
development would they be feasible?" he says. Benaroya thinks the first lunar
base is likely to be a more traditional metal-walled structure built on the
surface.
NASA has no plans for a dedicated robotic mission to search for lava tubes, but
NASAs Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter should shed some light on the matter when it
launches in 2008. Although not specifically designed to search for lava tubes,
the images it sends back "will help find good candidate lava tubes", says
Robinson, a member of the mission.
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